Jim Gashel, Chief Technology Officer of KNFB LLC, talks a bit about the success of the KNFB Reader app since its launch in september and gives us a quick look at the future roadmap of the app. A number of improvements are slated for inclusion in the iOS version, and an Android prototype is in active development for future availability on that platform. You can get the iOS app for $99, and you can visit the KNFB Reader website for information and support.
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Transcript
We strive to provide an accurate transcription, though errors may occur.
Hide transcriptTranscribed by Kayde Rieken
Welcome to BlindBargains.com coverage of CSUN 2015 — the biggest names, provocative interviews, and wall-to-wall exhibit hall coverage — brought to you by the American Foundation for the Blind.
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Now, here's J.J. Meddaugh.
J.J. Meddaugh: We're here at CSUN 2015 with Jim Gashel, Chief Technology Officer for KNFB LLC. And — but we are looking, of course, to talk about the KNFB Reader, the KNFB Reader for the iPhone and maybe beyond. Welcome back to Blind Bargains, Jim.
Jim Gashel: Yeah, thanks a lot, J.J. Glad to be here.
JM: Sure. So of course — let's — let's just back up a little bit. Of course, most people might know the KNFB Reader, but what's the — some of the latest developments? How — talk about the app and how it's been going and — obviously a huge reception on the iPhone.
JG: Yeah, it's been doing really well. I — you know, I've been associated with various efforts on behalf of blind people all of my adult life, and I must say this is one of the most rewarding that — that I've ever been part of. We put the app in the App Store on September 18, and we've just been absolutely swamped with people all over the world interested in it and — and, you know, buying it, which is good — (Laughs) — and — and, you know, demanding languages. The people from Turkey got at us right away and —
JM: (Laughs)
JG: — insisted that we get it — get Turkish. We were getting so many emails, we thought it was spam.
JM: (Laughs)
JG: And it turned out to be — (Laughs) — it turned out to be a gaggle of blind people in Turkey that wanted this app. And of course, we added Turkish real quick after that.
JM: (Laughs)
JG: So no, there's interest all over the world.
JM: And you were number one in some of the app categories for a while, right?
JG: Yes.
JM: That's —
JG: And — and still, after, what, four and a half months or five — we're, like, four and a half stars out of five.
JM: Mm-hmm.
JG: And four and a half stars resulted in — you know, one guy didn't like it real well. So we're —
JM: Well, yeah.
JG: But — but 90 —
JM: You can never be perfect.
JG: You know — you know, really, 98, 96 percent of the commentary are five stars.
JM: Awesome. Can you say how many you've sold, or just a lot, or —
JG: A lot. (Laughs)
JM: (Laughs)
JG: And — well, I — here's what I can say. Of course, we — we sell this for $99.99.
JM: Yep.
JG: And I can say thousands have been sold. And —
JM: But that was always the initial — will people pay 99 bucks for — you know.
JG: Sure. And — and see, the way we look at it is this: This is not a trivial app. It really is not a trivial app. And the work effort to create it has not been a trivial effort. You know, in some ways, leading up to where we are now, it's been a 40-year effort.
JM: Right.
JG: And, literally, some of the technology and some of the — many of the concepts and some of the technology were developed decades ago when — when Ray Kurzweil created the first reading machine. Now, of course, the iPhone environment's entirely different — cameras are different from scanners and stuff like that — but some of the concepts linger on and have been — well, here. Just — just one good example.
JM: Right.
JG: People wonder, well, why is our reading result so much better as compared to many of the apps that are of the same genre? And it is really because of Ray Kurzweil's genius, that you have to pre-process the image to improve it to the maximum extent possible before the OCR is performed. That happens within a fraction of a second.
JM: Now, yeah.
JG: But it — but it makes a huge difference in the reading results. And if you just take a picture and submit it to OCR, well, garbage in, garbage out.
JM: And that's probably one — you know, the biggest, you know — when you say, what differentiates this app —
JG: Yeah.
JM: — that makes it worth 99 bucks, I mean —
JG: Yeah.
JM: It — that's probably it.
JG: That's it. That's what it is.
JM: That's — yeah.
JG: That's what it is. And I — you know, I just don't think people realize that, sure, you can create an app that takes a picture and sends it to an OCR and you can sell it for 20 bucks and, you know, you'll get a result that maybe is worth 20 bucks.
JM: Some of the — the hard sell on that initially — and it — I believe, at the moment still — is there is no demo available. Is it — is that because of licensing, or is it a possibility down the — the road, or —
JG: Yeah. I mean, it is — licensing is a consideration in that. So there's a possibility that —
JM: Right.
JG: — we'll be able to create a demo version. We're not close-minded about it.
JM: Gotcha.
JG: But we also believe that people can take a good picture. It's not that hard.
JM: Yeah.
JG: And so we're a little reluctant to have a — have a try-it-before-you-buy-it —
JM: Sure.
JG: — option, in that sense that we're kind of saying, Well, for some of you it might be kind of hard, and we'll let you take a few pictures and — you know, we want people to be serious about this when they get into it.
JM: Sure.
JG: And if you put up a hundred dollars, you're going to be a little more serious than if somebody gives you something.
JM: So you've been doing a lot with — there's already been a couple free updates. This latest one —
JG: Oh, yeah.
JM: — just came out —
JG: Uh-huh.
JM: — a week or two ago.
JG: Yep.
JM: Vertical tilt guidance, some other things,, and —
JG: It — no. Actually, what it did — this one improved the file sharing.
JM: Okay.
JG: We didn't have the best approach, initially, to the file sharing capability. To some degree, it — even the approach we implemented didn't work quite right for a few things; and it's better now, much better now, with the latest update.
JM: So integrating and sharing with — or email or Dropbox —
JG: Dropbox, Google+ — Google Drive —
JM: Google Drive.
JG: — any, you know, apps that you have that — that are for file sharing, yeah, we're — we're plugged into them.
JM: And you can also now pull in pictures from the camera roll and —
JG: Absolutely.
JM: — and —
JG: Yeah. Just go to KNFB Reader, and then there's an option to look at your library. And so, if you've taken a picture of something that has text in it — and so it's in your normal camera library — just choose that picture, and it will come up in KNFB Reader and allow you to process the image.
JM: Sure. So looking towards the — the future, any other features that you're really working on that you — you can talk about in the near future?
JG: Yeah, I think so. One we get a lot of questions about — we have an automated means now of being able to so-called take a picture. Doesn't work very well. We — we included it — to some degree as a placeholder. But you have the choices of manual mode or automatic mode. Automatic mode is the one I'm referring to.
JM: Right.
JG: Manual works very well. You just use the gesture to take a picture. So automatic mode — what we envision doing fairly soon is — and this is particularly good for being on a stand.
JM: Sure.
JG: So imagine flipping the page. We detect the page flip. As soon as the page is stable under the camera, the picture would snap automatically. Flip the next page, the picture will snap automatically. Flip the next page, picture will snap automatically. So it's a great solution if you have a document of multi-pages to — to capture.
JM: Right. Because that was — I mean, especially with the Nokia reader, I mean, that was one of those things we always — you know, it was really good for reading —
JG: Yeah.
JM: — handouts and shorter documents —
JG: Yeah.
JM: — and maybe not as — as well for books and things like that.
JG: Yeah.
JM: This sounds like it would change a lot of that.
JG: So it — it — I think it would change it. I'm using this on a stand, and then it — the page flip is — is really, really neat. And there are a lot of stands available. We don't sell any. We're not going to. AT Guys should — might want to sell some stands.
JM: We — we've thought about it.
JG: But — (Laughs) — yeah.
JM: We're looking. (Laughs)
JG: But they're out there, and some people have even got into the business of actually making stands. (Laughs)
JM: Yeah.
JG: To — because of KNFB Reader. So they're out there, though, and — yeah.
JM: That shows your product is going somewhere when you have a —
JG: Yeah.
JM: — market of — that wants to create accessories for your product.
JG: (Laughs) Yeah, I like it.
JM: That's — that's always a good sign.
JG: I — I really do like it. But — so that's the newest one, would be the page flip. Language translation we would hope to bring into the app at some point.
JM: Is it —
JG: Yeah.
JM: Is it — mm-hmm. Is it possible — I — I know we've been talking about it a little bit — maybe where you could take a picture of a business card and have all that brought into a —
JG: Yeah. That's — that's another, I would say, early option. You know, we don't get much request for that. I thought there would be more interest in that than there appears to be; so if you guys want that, you better be shouting out about it. We're — we can do it, and I think we will do it, but it was on our original roadmap and still is. The other thing is optimization for the iPad. Now, we're limited there by the camera flash —
JM: Yep.
JG: — and the camera in the iPad isn't as good as the cameras in the iPhones. But —
JM: And they don't have flash.
JG: Correct. But aside from those limitations, we can make the presentation of print better for people with low vision or dyslexia, which we will do. So I think it'll be a better educational tool that way.
JM: Are you finding the newer iPads — like, you know, the iPad Air — as — do you think it's somewhat better results with —
JG: Yeah.
JM: — at least newer cameras and —
JG: Yeah. Yeah, the iPhone — the iPad I have won't even run KNFB Reader. (Laughs) It's old enough that —
JM: Right. (Laughs)
JG: — it — you know — it won't even start.
JM: Sure. Of course, lots going on as — as far as new features and — and things like that.
JG: Yeah.
JM: And you're showing a — an Android prototype —
JG: Yes.
JM: — at — at the booth there.
JG: Yes, and I'm glad you mentioned it. I — you know, I guess I — we're far enough along with it that I even forget. So Android would be next. That will be exciting and challenging. Of course, we're getting a steady and growing number of requests for an Android version.
JM: You know, and — and on that, too — I mean, while the iPhone is certainly the dominant market for people who are blind, a lot of low-vision people, or people with dyslexia — there are probably a lot more Android users in that camp.
JG: I think so, and also, around the world, Android maybe has a little better —
JM: Yep.
JG: — following. And then, again —
JM: And —
JG: — devices are — are — there's more selection.
JM: It's cheaper.
JG: Yeah.
JM: And also, ultimately, brings the — the total cost of the reader down —
JG: Yeah.
JM: — a little bit, too.
JG: It — it helps. So — now, we'll have — the challenging part will be, we'll need to define, more precisely, the devices that it will really run on and — considered to be supported.
JM: Sure.
JG: But we'll — you know, we'll undertake to do that. We may have to learn as we go.
JM: Right, because —
JG: And there's —
JM: — you don't want someone paying 99 bucks, having a bad experience, leaving a bad review and all that.
JG: Yeah.
JM: You've really got to be careful, I guess, with that.
JG: Yeah.
JM: Sure.
JG: Yeah, we do. But — but you know, even now, we don't list the iPad as something we support; but —
JM: Sure.
JG: — I notice people are using it on the iPad —
JM: Yep.
JG: — and it seems to work pretty well. In a well-lit situation, and you're not likely to have shadows and such, iPad's going to be fine. So we don't want to say that it won't run on these devices — and I'm sure this is going to be even more true with Android — but at the same time, we'll — we'll list the ones that we have tested it with.
JM: Sure. That makes a lot of — and probably — again, would it work better on phones versus tablets?
JG: Most likely.
JM: Right.
JG: Because the cameras seem to be better.
JM: Sure. Although they keep changing —
JG: Yep. Can't tell.
JM: — over time. Right.
JG: Yeah.
JM: Sure. Back to the beginning, we introduced you as Jim Gashel of KNFB LLC?
JG: Yeah.
JM: That's a little —
JG: Yeah. Well, it is. We — we've gone through a transition on KNFB, but the term "KNFB" symbolizes what's really true, is we're — you know, Ray Kurzweil has an active role in helping this technology to move forward. Originally, we formed a company called KNFB Reading Technology, and that company did well and survived for a number of years. It ultimately merged with an e-music company — well, a company called E-Music —
JM: Yeah. Yep.
JG: — and a book company called Baker & Taylor. That wasn't actually a merger, but they provided content. We got off into developing ebook technology. Well, now that we can — you know, we — we were — we had kind of a dry spell there, where we really couldn't develop for these mobile devices because they didn't have good enough cameras.
JM: Yeah, you kept waiting on the iPhone, and —
JG: We did.
JM: — people asked for years and years, and —
JG: We did. So now, we're back to this, and the NFB has acquired the technology. That's what's the good news.
JM: Which it didn't — so —
JG: Right.
JM: — despite the name, the NFB wasn't always in —
JG: Oh, not at all.
JM: Right. An owner, right.
JG: I mean, the NFB was one of several investors.
JM: Mm-hmm.
JG: The NFB is the sole owner of this technology now. So I think that, from the blind people's point of view, this is really good news because — (Laughs) — because we don't have any other interest than developing this technology for — as good as it can be for blind people.
JM: So looking at other things, it's all now the — back to the Reader. There's no more Blio or anything like that, or —
JG: No. No. I mean, there's Blio. Yeah, it exists. And Baker & Taylor has Blio.
JM: Mm-hmm.
JG: So you can buy books, go to Blio.com. And Blio is their —
JM: Yeah.
JG: — ebook reading system.
JM: It's hard — it's hard to compete with — when you already have iBooks and Kindle and some of those already established — you know, it definitely —
JG: Yeah. And just — it just — you know, depends on where you want to buy books. But you're right. I do think that KNFB led the industry into accessibility. Now, there are other factors that helped to get them there, like lawsuits and — (Laughs) — you know —
JM: Yeah.
JG: — compelling them to — to do it. So it was a double-edged thing.
JM: Right.
JG: But Blio was among the first, really, to — to get more robust accessibility. Now, the whole industry has to evolve to be even better.
JM: Yeah.
JG: But — but there are a number of initiatives underway to — that will help to bring that about. So, you know, I now read books on a Kindle. I couldn't do that a couple of years ago.
JM: True.
JG: So, you know, I'm —
JM: So — so the —
JG: — that's great.
JM: The — the intellectual property is owned by NFB, is — so is KNFB LLC its own thing, or what's the —
JG: Yeah. Well, it's a — I — I don't know what the legal term is.
JM: Right.
JG: But it is part of the NFB.
JM: Can it self-support.
JG: I don't know. (Laughs)
JM: Right.
JG: Hope so. (Laughs)
JM: Right. That's the goal, though.
JG: Yeah. (Laughs) Right at the moment it isn't, but — but —
JM: Right.
JG: — let's hope it does.
JM: Sure.
JG: Yeah.
JM: Well, I guess you just keep developing —
JG: Yeah.
JM: — new versions or, you know,—
JG: Yeah. Sure.
JM: — and apps —
JG: For sure.
JM: — and go along with that.
JG: Oh, yeah.
JM: Awesome.
JG: Yeah. And — we are — I should mention that we are partners with a company in Belgium called Sensotec. And they've been involved with KNFB for years; so they have engineering talent, but — but we still do, too. And so I see a — a great partnership going forward. They're a — they're a — a company that is dedicated to accessibility. That's — that's where they start, and that's where they end. And — and they don't think of anything else but accessible technology. So this is a very good marriage.
JM: There's a — one more question. There's been a lot of — of course, we know about OCR.
JG: Yeah.
JM: And there's been a — a lot more talk and — again, lately, back to this whole, you know, image recognition as opposed to character recognition.
JG: Yeah.
JM: It's — it's been one of those things that's been talked about for years and years. Any progress on that, or is it something that's kind of — it's still in a research phase, or —
JG: Definitely research. I mean, there's a lot going on. You know, Google does a lot with computer vision.
JM: Yep.
JG: There are other companies that do, and — and we're becoming more and more a part of those efforts. I see that technology — you're absolutely right. You know, we — we used to talk about optical character recognition. I think we should be talking about optical image recognition now. And I see that as maybe becoming part of this technology in the future, going forward. Certainly, optical image recognition needs to be part of ebook technology because books are more and more images and graphics and charts and such —
JM: Yeah.
JG: — than they are just words on a page. So it has — has a role there.
JM: Okay.
JG: You know, in terms of — just real — so the hard news, hard-core products? No.
JM: Right.
JG: It's research at this point.
JM: Yeah.
JG: But I'm sure it'll become more than that.
JM: Sure. Absolutely. Awesome. If people want to get the app or get more information, go ahead and give your website and how they can contact —
JG: Yeah. It's KNFBRreader.com. And I am Jim@KNFBReader.com. Or they can write to support@KNFBReader.com. And then, of course, what I like to tell them is, You don't have to go to our website. Go to the App Store, and when you see the — the price there, hit the — double-tap on the price and then hit the Buy button; and you'll be really happy that you did.
JM: Awesome. Hey, thank you so much for giving us an update and
JG: All right, J.J. Yeah, I'd be happy to do it anytime.
JM: Appreciate it.
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J.J. Meddaugh is an experienced technology writer and computer enthusiast. He is a graduate of Western Michigan University with a major in telecommunications management and a minor in business. When not writing for Blind Bargains, he enjoys travel, playing the keyboard, and meeting new people.
