Our virtual convention coverage is in full swing, with a deep dive into the happenings at Humanware. Joining J.J. in the simulated Exhibit Hall is Peter Tucic, Blindness Products Brand Ambassador, for his first interview in front of the BBQast microphones. The pair discuss all the features in the new Brailliant BI 20X and 40x units along with how they differ from the APH models. They then turn their attention to the Victor Reader Trek and its most recent GPS update. But that is just the tip of the iceberg as they cover more ground, including the recent service outage. To learn more, join the BI-X mailing list at brailliant-bi-x-users+subscribe@groups.io or visit the Humanware website
Blind Bargains Virtual Exhibit Hall coverage is Brought to you by AFB AccessWorld.
For the latest news and accessibility information on mainstream and access technology, Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Amoxil offerings, access technology book reviews, and mobile apps, and how they can enhance entertainment, education and employment, log on to AccessWorld, the American Foundation for the Blind's free, monthly, online technology magazine. Visit www.afb.org/aw.
Transcript
We strive to provide an accurate transcription, though errors may occur.
Hide transcriptTranscribed by Grecia Ramirez
Direct from Orlando, Florida; St. Louis; Las Vegas; Dallas; Sparks, Nevada – everywhere – it’s Blindbargains.com virtual Exhibit Hall coverage brought to you by AFB AccessWorld.
For the latest news and accessibility information on mainstream and access technology; Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon offerings; access technology; book reviews; and mobile apps and how they can enhance entertainment, education, and employment, log onto AccessWorld, the American Foundation for the Blind's free monthly online technology magazine. www.AFB.org/AW.
Now, here’s J.J. Meddaugh.
J.J. MEDDAUGH: Welcome to Blind Bargains’ virtual Exhibit Hall coverage. We are here in Anaheim – no. We’re – we’re home, aren’t we? We’re still at home, here in the –
PETER TUCIC: Kind of.
JM: Kind of. Something like that.
Peter Tucic, Brand Ambassador for Blindless Products for Humanware. I’m not sure we’ve ever had you on before.
PT: J.J., you haven’t. But I’ve listened. I’ve been here in spirit. I mean, 220 – how many times?
JM: Yeah. Exactly. And all the other ones and -- well, welcome to the podcast.
PT: Thank you so much.
JM: Good to have you here.
PT: It’s great to be here.
JM: You know, maybe we should put some -- like, some fake background noise in there to make it sound like we’re in exhibit – no. We’re at home.
PT: I kind of thought about that. I figured Patrick can throw something in. We can – or we can, you know, we could pick. Do we want, like, lightly attended convention, or do we want crazy convention? Because –
JM: 2020 CSUN or –
PT: Right.
JM: -- like a really busy NFB or ACB.
PT: Do we want one that sounds like, you know, you can roll a bowling ball down the thing, or do we want the real, you know, hot and heavy CSUN, step right up, sort of, you know, crowd, which I think we’ll get next year, hopefully.
JM: I hope. Yes. We’ll be back in Anaheim.
But before we – there’s some new products to talk about for sure that have been released and a big update to the Victor Trek as well. Before we get to all that though, how has your year been? It’s certainly been a different environment for you, I’m sure.
PT: So I came home on March 13th or something of last year -- and after being on the road about 40 weeks a year for the last four or five years. And I’ve been with Humanware since 2015, so about five years that I was on the move. And I have not left my house, to my wife’s chagrin; right? I’m still here.
It’s been a great year for me. It’s been nice to be home, but I miss seeing everybody. I miss the people, I miss the camaraderie, I miss putting devices in people’s hands. It’s been a challenge, but we’re all – we’re getting through it. We’re fortunate that we can do these sorts of things virtually. We can reach people. You know, I can come to your ears from my basement here in Chicago. But it is not the same. It really has been a challenge. And we just – we’re itching to get back to it, and I think we will.
The other thing that has been a challenge is just the remote instruction. We play heavily in education. We do a lot with education, and that’s been tough, not in that the technology doesn’t do what it needs to, but in that we know what a challenge it is for a lot of us. If you think about being in school, myself being in school –
JM: Yup.
PT: -- as a blind kiddo, it’s a – it’s been a major challenge. And I work with kids all across the country, and watching them struggle and trying to get ahead or keep up with remote instruction has definitely been – it’s been a trial. You know, it’s been trying times, so we are really trying to do the best we can. And we’ve done well. Everything’s good; all is nice, but we are really missing what we normally do.
JM: What do you think’s been the biggest challenge? We have a bunch of new products to talk about, but normally, we can look at them and we can describe them and we can touch them, like you said. But, you know, when you’re trying to release two new Braille displays, how do you explain that to people, and how do you get that through someone’s head exactly what this likes – what does it look like and what it’s all about?
PT: Well, it’s a great one because normally, I’d say, you know, I’m going to tell you about it, but when I come to ABC show or conference or, you know, we’ll have devices at such and such a place, you know, it – we can’t do that. And I am totally blind. I have to feel a product. I want to feel a product before I make a decision. Not only, you know, by test driving the menu, but, you know, I want to know if it’s going to work for me. I want to know if it’s light enough, if it’s portable enough.
And it’s been hard to have these two very, very neat, very, well-received new products in a lot of ways, but we can’t do what we normally do, and that has definitely – and I encourage anybody who wants to look at a product, you know – sight unseen’s a little – it’s a little different when you’re a blind person and you can’t make that decision the same way you would. We’ve struggled. Definitely, I’ve been getting more creative with my adjectives for how heavy something is. You know, I’m not just going to say 1.8 pounds. Maybe I’ll try to compare it to something that’s in everybody’s house. But it’s been a challenge, and it was a challenge. It will continue to be.
We know that the conventions are virtual this year in terms of NFB, ACB, CSUN, ATIA. So the times that we’d normally get out there, unfortunately, we’ve just had some real difficult times. But we’re doing what we can to describe.
JM: All right. Well, we’re going to test out those adjectives.
PT: Oh, no.
JM: Let’s start with the 40X, the X series. This is the latest version of the Brailliant. Now, the last Brailliant BI, Humanware made a big point of saying how this – the notetaker – I’m sorry, the Braille display -- was great for exams and things like that because it had very limited connectivity. You connect it as a Braille Display, but the trend is more towards these kind of hybrid Braille displays with a little extra added to it. And there’s actually quite a bit extra in the 40X. So why don’t we start with the physical and all the adjectives you want to throw in, and then you can kind of just transition into what makes it unique and special?
PT: So the word that comes to mind – it’s a long word -- is supercalifragilistic – no, I’m kidding. It’s – it really is. We listened to our consumers, you know, to our customers over the last several years. We know when we’ve seen, kind of, where the arc of Braille display features has gone. We know there have been some great products that have had internal capabilities, so we wanted to bring a Braille Display forward that would really spotlight and highlight, yes, what a Braille display should do, but also have a lot of internal capabilities. So in doing that, we relaunched the Brailliant as the Brailliant BI X series. So there’s the 40X, which we’ll talk about; and then there’s the 20X.
The 40X is a powerhouse. It really does bring in – and we’re calling these intelligent Braille displays.
JM: Nice.
PT: So there’s adjective number one. I should get a bell for every new adjective; right? These are intelligent, and what that means is in addition to the ability to connect to your screen readers, you have your five Bluetooth connections or your USBC port, which we’re using for charging or data transfer. You can use that to connect to your screen reader or your PC as well. But we’re also bringing in internal capabilities, so Wi-Fi. These devices, the Brailliant 40X can connect to 2.4 and 5 GHZ networks in terms of wireless networks in your home. You can connect directly to NFB Newsline, directly to the NLS BARD Braille catalog, and directly to Bookshare. You can also use Wi-Fi to update the devices. So when we release an update, which, it is – we’re recording this sometime in March. I have no idea what day it is –
JM: What day is it anymore? Yeah.
PT: I don’t know if you know what day it is. I don’t know what day it is. But in April, we’re looking at launching the first update to the Brailliant BI 40X series. And I will be doing some webinars and things on that to – with specific features. But that will be done over Wi-Fi. So we’ll be launching that. It’s a wireless update. Boom. You can certainly still go and download the package, but – install it on a thumb drive, but these do have wireless capability, as I mentioned.
They have thumb drive, USB type A slot there so you can connects your thumb drive for storage, because the devices do – you know, the 40X has file management, so you are able to move files and create folders and things and move them around.
And then you’re also able to have a basic editor. And it is slightly more than a scratchpad. It is not the full word processor that we would have on something like a BrailleNote Touch Plus, but it is going to be able to work with DOCX, DOC, RTF, and other file types that we’ll be adding as we move forward. And you’re opening those in a TXT format. So it does have that onboard capability for you to take your notes in your meetings and move them off the device to something else, you know, whether to a computer --
JM: So if you open a Word file, it strips down a lot of the formatting, presents it in text, and then –
PT: Yes.
JM: -- could you save it back, or does it save back as a TXT?
PT: It will save as a TXT.
JM: Okay.
PT: And so what we’re working on, though -- and what’s been brought up – and I’ve had many folks requesting Markdown support --
JM: Oh.
PT: -- and what we can be doing with that. So we’re literally – you know, we’re looking into that because it would be very beneficial to add in the editor. But it is doing everything in TXT, so when you open a DOCX, when you open a, you know, a BRF even, for instance, it’s going to say, what Braille table do you want to use to open this, and it’s going to turn that into a TXT file.
JM: For – let me just –
PT: Yeah.
JM: -- fill in for anyone who might be new to that. Markdown is a format that’s used a lot by bloggers; it’s big on Wordpress. We actually use it on Blind Bargains as well. And it’s a very simplified HTML, for lack of a better way to explain it. It’s just very simple to add things like bulleted lists or links or things like that.
PT: Heading styles, exactly.
JM: Yes.
PT: Yeah. So it’s something we would give a lot of functionality to this. I mean, really, we think of this editor – it’s something that’s going to give you a lot of power in your meeting. You know, it’s the ability to work with files, but it’s not – you’re not doing this to do heavy lifting in terms of formatting and whatnot. I mean, it’s a Braille display, so ideally, you’re doing that with Microsoft Word, with Pages, with something, and using a Braille display at that point to interact with your screen reader.
JM: Okay. What other features are included in it?
PT: So it’s going to have a four-function calculator for your plus, minus, divide, and multiply. I was asking, or joking, with someone the other day about naming the four functions. And I never really thought about it and was never asked that because I’ve used the term a lot, but those are your four functions.
JM: Better than the old Intel one, the old Pentium that had three functions.
PT: Exactly. This is your –
JM: You have to be old enough to get that joke, but --
PT: -- good old four-function calculator.
So we have a calculator onboard. We have, as I said, the wireless – the online services, so you are able to download books, and you read those books in the Victor Reader application. So that is the onboard book reader that will read Daisy books. We certainly are looking at adding support for pieces such as ePUB or things as we move forward. That is not something that is on there right now, but certainly something that we are open to. We love suggestions and feedback, and I’ll be talking about a user list that I created for users to provide us with that.
But the device also contains a file manager as I had mentioned. And then the other unique thing here is if you plug the device into your computer, it will show up as a mass storage. So you can easily move files back and forth with, you know, with Windows Explorer. You can simply copy and paste your files and folders back and forth. So that’s been something that has been asked for and you’re able to take advantage of with USBC.
JM: When you mentioned the book reader, you’re referring to Braille only; correct? Or is there audio support?
PT: So at this point in time, on the 40X, there is Braille only. There is -- on the device, there are stereo speakers. That will be something that we will enable with a free software update. So it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when, in terms of audio support. I know that immediately, that raises the question of what about BARD; right? And what about – what does audio mean? Because audio can mean a lot of things. And I will say at launch, audio is going to mean audio files, so in theory, that would be MP3s. The device also have a microphone. So the 40X has a microphone. We really want to be able to allow you to record voice notes much like you do on the Victor Reader products that we have. So it would be playback of those audio files or notes.
Now, as we move forward, as I’m sure everybody listening who uses BARD says, well, I use the BARD audio catalog. And that’s certainly been something that has been brought to our attention. A lot of suggestions have been put forward for it, so that is one side of – you know, the we shall see, in terms of what –
JM: Sure.
PT: -- audio means. Also, audio does not mean text-to-speech. So these devices, at this point in time, do not have text-to-speech on the devices. And that, again, audio means audio. It does not mean that text-to-speech will be on the device. Again, doesn’t mean something we can look at, doesn’t mean we’re not able to do it. It’s just not there at this time, and we – we’re really going to assess what the audio support is once it’s there. But the device does have – the 40X has stereo speakers when audio’s enabled, and it also has a microphone.
JM: So let’s talk about the speakers and the ports and some of the other things. If you could describe a little bit the physical layout and a couple of these details that I know always get asked about with Braille displays, like where are the Braille keys themselves –
PT: Yes.
JM: -- what’s the layout?
PT: So it’s going to feel like your old Brailliant – original Brailliant units. So you have a standard 8-dot Braille input keyboard on the top. There are no other keys, in terms of – there’s no five-way navigation, there’s no – none of that. It’s a very clean top face. You do have a speaker to the left and right of that 8-dot keyboard. So about a – if you think of the standard spacing on a Brailliant – current Brailliant BI40 that was out to this point until the BI X, the spacing will be the same. The keys will be the same. But about an inch and a half to the left of dot 7, or backspace, or an inch – about an inch, I would say, to the right of each. So an inch to the left of dot 7 and an inch to the right of dot 8, there is a speaker on that top face. The Braille display is underneath the keyboard, and the spacebars are on that front edge. There is a slight beveling -- it’s sort of a slight curve.
We did rework the spacebars. We had a lot of feedback that the previous spacebars were not appreciated, were not preferred. So we’ve reworked them. They’re much – they have a better travel distance, so they’re more natural to type on. They are – there are two of them, and they’re along the bottom edge of – the front edge of the display. But they’re not on the top edge, they’re not on the front edge, they’re kind of at an angle – slight angle – to be ergonomic when you’re typing.
The Braille keyboard runs across that bottom – we do have the command keys on the Brailliant BI 40X. So to the left of the Braille display, you have command keys 1, 2, and 3; to the right of the Braille display, you have command keys 4, 5, and 6.
JM: Are they the same design as before, the little round –
PT: Yes. They’re little round --
JM: -- looking things?
PT: They might be slightly – ever so slightly -- less domed, if that’s an adjective. They are slightly flatter, ever so slightly. But they are the same concept there.
So we’ll use those command keys when we’re driving, you know, Victor Reader or iOS. They’re going to work to do various things depending on how they are configured. And then across the front edge, we have our standard thumb keys which have been part of Humanware since I started using Humanware –
JM: Yup.
PT: – back in 2000. We have our thumb keys across the front. They will, again, resemble the thumb keys that are on a BrailleNote Touch Plus. So the outer thumb keys being previous on the left, next on the right, are narrower than the inner thumb keys that are used to pan the Braille display, left or right. And then, in the middle, there is a home button. So that’d be a new addition, the home button brings you back to the internal intelligence, or back to the main menu where it quickly will allow you to get into your device list if you’re controlling multiple devices to be able to switch from your laptop to your phone or from your iPad to your Mac or whatever devices you may be connected to.
JM: Okay. And where are the ports?
PT: So along the left edge, we have the USBC port which is used for charging and also to hook up to your computer. We have the power button, which is going to be the same power button we use on the BrailleNote Touch Plus. So there is some slight tactileness to the – either side of that power button to avoid it from always getting bumped and turning on. It doesn’t stick out. It is flush with the unit.
And then, as we come toward our self further – so, again, furthest away from us on that left edge is USBC, then the power button. Then closest to us is the USB slot for thumb drives. So that would be where we plug in our thumb drive on the unit.
Across the back edge, there is absolutely nothing. On that back face, it is just smooth sailing.
When we get to the right edge, you have three things. As we come toward our self from back to front, we have the headphone jack, which, again, once audio is enabled, we do have an eighth-inch headphone jack. And then, we have two volume keys, so for audio control.
JM: Sounds great. So in terms of weight, if you were to compare it to a fruit – now, in terms of weight –
PT: Oh, man. You need a pretty long fruit. I mean, you can think of it as an eggplant that’s not fully matured. How’s that, J.J.?
JM: Maybe. All right. Well, how much does it weigh, about?
PT: It’s about 2.4 pounds, I believe. so it’s somewhere right in that slightly over 2 pound, 2.2 – I could pull up the exact spec, and we can put it in the show notes.
JM: Sure.
PT: But I don’t have it completely on hand. But it is right in there, right at about that 2-ish pound. We’re going to say ish.
JM: Awesome. Battery life and price before we move on.
PT: My favorite part: the battery life. So we’re at 15 hours of battery life. This will be true on both devices. So you’re going to get 15 hours of use. I do believe – and I haven’t tested this myself – but if you turn off that Wi-Fi or Bluetooth – which, I will say, we are using Bluetooth 5.0. And that’s very important. So we’re the first display to offer 5.0 in terms of Bluetooth, which is, kind of, that stronger, more stable, it will open up doors as we move forward with the internet of things; right? Possibilities to be opened.
But 15 hours of battery life could be decreased. I would – or increased, that is, if you were to turn off Wi-Fi. Pricing is thirty-one ninety-five. So $3195.
JM: So as we alluded to, there is another portion to the X series, the 20X. So let’s move onto that one and talk about the differences.
PT: Sounds great. And there definitely are differences. So the software, what is inside is all identical. So I’ll start by – with that. There is no difference, you know, in terms of what the intelligence, the notepad, the Victor Reader, the online services, the Wi-Fi updates, no difference.
From a physical side of things, the 20X, which is the second piece of the X series, is going to have some physical differences. Firstly, it is not running Bluetooth 5. So this is using Bluetooth 4.2. It is going to connect to 2.4 wireless GHZ wireless network, so you’re not getting 5G networks on this one. The other differences are that this device has a user removable, or replaceable, battery. So this one, you can take the battery out if you have, of course, the right screwdrivers. You can certainly take that out and replace it yourself. With a 40, it is inset.
Another difference is going to be that the 20X has an SD card slot so that you, in addition to the USB drive; right? In addition to USBC as well, you do have an SD card slot.
So there are some physical differences. There are no command keys on the 20X. And it, again, it’s slightly thicker. And the spacebars are going to be a little bit more on top of the unit, not on that, sort of, beveled sort of front edge, the curved front edge as they are on the 40-cell unit.
JM: Let’s talk a little bit about the development of the 20X. So you have a very strong partnership now with APH in developing Braille displays and other products, and APH came up with the Chameleon, which you helped develop. That is very similar to this; correct?
PT: You are spot on. So you and I, as totally blind people, when we put our hands on a Chameleon or you put your hands on a BI 20X, you would not know the difference until you turn it on. So it is essentially that same shell. And the product, what happens is – so for a product to be on quota funds, which the APH Chameleon is on quota funds, as is Mantis and other APH products -- they make their way onto quota funds for K-12 education. And quota funds can also be used in other circumstances. But for a product to be on quota funds, it has to have some differentiators. So the product will – and as it goes forward, there will be more differentiators. So I’m being asked – I’m always asked what is the difference. Why a BI 20X versus a Chameleon? And it really comes down to preference. There is certainly a price difference. But at this point, those differences are going to be on internal capabilities. And that will remain the case.
So as of right now, the Brailliant 20X allows you to customize the applications and remove them from the main menu. So if you don’t want the file manager or you don’t want the user guide or you don’t want date and time or maybe, you don’t have an NLS BARD account, you can turn that off and hide that, if you will. The other piece is that the application for the online services on the 20X does give you access to the BARD braille catalog, whereas APH has not – you know, that is not a reality on the APH side of things. So they’re working with – on the Chameleon, that would be the NFB Newsline and Bookshare, where we have access also to BARD mobile if you’re downloading from the Braille catalog.
There are other slight differences. I know you had mentioned – and when we talked about the 40 about exam mode. And that is something that we do offer on the 20X as well as the 40X, which is a way to lock your device into terminal mode via Bluetooth – I’m sorry – via USB for a set amount of time. So if you’re in that work situation, if you’re in that test-taking or whatever it may be, we do have the ability to lock the unit into exam mode. And that is something that is currently not offered on the Chameleon at this point. What I’ll say though, is we know – I mean, those are differences, but they’re not very marked differences; right? I mean it is rather simple right now. As we go forward, you will certainly see some forking or branching between the BI 20X and the Chameleon in terms of what is or is not offered or available, and that has to do with how products and pieces go into quota funds, say on quota funds, and then to be available and have a differentiator that can qualify.
So we are very, very, very happy to work with APH. A lot of my friends are at APH. I worked with Greg for many years, who’s a frequent Blind Bargains –
JM: Yeah.
PT: -- what would he be? A – not an attendee. What is he called? What am I called?
JM: He’s – yeah. He’s beyond contributor. He needs his own title too, you know? You both do.
PT: Right. He needs, like –
But Greg is with APH, as is my good friend, Jim Sullivan and others. You know, we’ve worked so closely with them, and we’ve really developed a great partnership and built some very neat products. And we’re so happy that we have all this Braille. We’ve just seen so much Braille coming out of this last year. So we’ll continue to work with APH moving forward, so you will certainly not be hearing the end of us and APH doing some neat things.
JM: So does the BI 20X have BARD audio as well as Braille or –
PT: So it does not have audio. So again, there will be audio support. The 20X does have a mono speaker. It also has the headphone jack and the volume keys just like the 40X does.
JM: Okay.
PT: Once that audio is active, that will then determine – again, audio meaning MP3s or music files. It’s going to be audio content at first. We need to assess what that will look like. But the BARD catalog on both the 20 and the 40 is the Braille catalog at this point in time.
JM: And that’s still very important. And I guess some of that also happened because Humanware was working on the new NLS eReader; right?
PT: What do you know? And I will tell you, if you get your hands on one of those, it will look just like -- guess what? It will feel just like a BI 20X and a Chameleon.
JM: But a lot more locked down.
PT: Way more locked down. So that product, if you are – and they are still in the trial phase in various states. You may want to – there are six states that are doing the beta. I am in Illinois; that is not one of the states. I have not seen one myself. But it is a Braille display with access to the BARD catalog and that is it. There’s no editor, there’s no internal features. But it is something that – there are going to be Braille displays available through NLS, and everybody will be able to get one. So if you receive NLS services, you can request a Braille display. I would strongly suggest and encourage everyone to do so. And don’t – you know, take advantage of the fact that these things will be offered.
And we are so glad to be able to work with NLS, to work with APH, to work with partner organizations, not just in the United States but also in Canada. We partner with CNIB or with Vision Australia or with all these other places to help put Braille in people’s hands, and then also to make new products, I mean unique products. We’re looking at these intelligent Braille displays, just things that haven’t – haven’t existed, and there’s a lot on the road map. So it really is – it’s a fun time, and I could not be happier – someone who’s blind – just all this Braille. Braille, Braille, Braille. All about Braille.
JM: Very exciting. Very exciting. Just one more thing, since we ended up kind of side-tracked into the NLS eReader for a second. You mentioned it’s pretty much just a book reader. Does it have screen reader Bluetooth support, or is that locked down as well?
PT: It does, to my knowledge. It does have screen reader support, yes. You can work with it with your iPhone or with JAWS or with a screen reader. It certainly will function as a Braille display for your screen reader.
JM: Okay. Is it USBC on this or is it micro-USB?
PT: USBC, J.J. It’s the – you know – it’s not a flavor of the month. That is the new jam. That is our new – I mean, really, it is the – what everything should be going to at this point. So USBC. And again, with the 20X, you will get the five Bluetooth devices. You will get that USB device as well, so six devices simultaneously can be connected. And we – we’re really excited.
Before we move on, I just want to say I have created a user list, or if you just want to watch the messages go by, you can certainly do that. But it is a groups.io list. And for all BI X users, if you’d like to subscribe, you can send a message to Brailliant-bi-x-users -- so B-r-a-i-l-l-i-a-n-t is Brailliant. So Brailliant BI X users all separated by dashes, the plus sign, and the word subscribe at groups.io. And we’ll put that in the show notes.
But there is, you know, I’ve tried to create a form for users. There’s certainly Braille display groups on Facebook and things that we’ve tried to do as well, but we really want feedback. And we can’t – we make these products possible – now, I’m really sounding like my friend Greg Stilson right now.
JM: You are.
PT: We make these products possible because of the feedback we receive, and we got a lot of feedback to create the 40X, 20X. What should be in a product, what should it look like, what sorts of functionality pieces do we want? We don’t want that full-fledged notetaker, but we want something that’s somewhere in between. So we’re really looking to create that. And I wanted to make a, sort of a user group, and this is what we have.
So if you’d like to join the group, feel free. You can certainly unsubscribe if you’re getting inundated with lots of messages or manage your subscription to lessen that, but we encourage you to join us and provide feedback. If you do have one of these units, we’d love to hear from you. And if you do not, it might be a nice way to learn and see what’s going on.
JM: That’s very cool. And, yes, we’ll put that in the show notes since you said we would.
PT: Yes. I will dictate that.
JM: That’s awesome. I’m sure you get a lot of questions, especially now as Braille displays are becoming more advanced and they’re incorporating some features that the more expensive notetakers have had. So if you have someone that calls in or Emails you and asks you how do you choose between, say, a BI 40X and a BrailleNote Touch Plus, what’s the type of response you’d give something like that?
PT: That’s a really good question, J.J., because a lot of times, folks will reach out and will be unsure of a device they want. And in this case, I mean, we now have kind of that middle of the – you know, middle-of-the-road product; we have the Cadillac in the notetaker; we have the simple, sort of Brailliant 14. We do have an – a wide variety, and there are so many different Braille Displays out there today.
What I talk to – or what I tend to ask people is what are you using this device for? Are you comfortable using a screen reader? Are you comfortable using, you know, other pieces of technology, or are you looking to rely very heavily on this device? Because if you’re looking to Email and web-browse and do all these things and you’re not a comfortable – you’re not as comfortable, you’re not a strong screen reader user, you might want to take more of a notetaker approach because we certainly have a full-fledged product that runs modern apps and can do all sorts of things with web-browsing and Email and all that.
But if you’re somebody who’s saying, you know, I really only use my product – I want to take notes when somebody calls me, I want to read something in church, or I want to save some books and whatnot, and yeah, I want to use it with my iPhone, you certainly – I would never, ever want you to go through the process or put down the money for a notetaker when you’re only going to use one or two features. And that -- that is really it. It’s a decision that’s kind of at a personal level too is how many Braille cells do you want? Kind of, what are you looking for on that front?
So it’s a very good question. I really always come down to it’s a personal use case, and I think that’s what happens too in a lot of rehab scenarios. They’ll ask you, well, what are you using this for? You need to justify what you want the product for –
JM: Right.
PT: -- and what you want to do with it. So it’s a great question. And I’m asked this all the time. And I think, yes, we’re starting to see some – not gray area, but we’re trying to bring in a more functional product for somebody who does not need or want a notetaker, but you want the functionality of a powerful Braille device and you want some internal capabilities and you want to be able to connect to Wi-Fi. And we’re going to – this is going to grow. We’re at version 1; right? We’re going to be seeing versions for the next several years, the next many years. The previous Brailliant was around ten years. We supported the Apex for 12 years. We will – we supported the second-generation Trek. We’re in the eighth, ninth year.
So, you know, we know that this product will be with us for a long time as we move forward, and we know it’s going to start to blend some of what is on other products or what is on a more – you know, a different class of products into these new intelligent Braille displays. So it’s worth asking questions. It’s also – once we get on the road, come see us at a table. Come see us at a booth. You know, ask us questions. Ask our sales reps; ask your dealer. We want to make sure everybody’s making the right decision.
I’m always approached by individuals who say, I got this, and it’s just – it doesn’t do this, this, this, or I don’t use this, this, and this. And I’ll say, gosh. You should have been asked those questions when you wanted to purchase the product, because we don’t want somebody getting a product that isn’t useful for them.
JM: It almost harkens back to customers that we hear from that say, man, I really wish I had a product that worked more like the Braille ‘N Speak where you could just turn it on and take notes. It almost –
PT: Yup.
JM: -- is like these Braille displays are kind of putting in some of those features and catering to the people who don’t want the advanced complexity of a higher end, you know, Android-based notetaker.
PT: That’s exactly it. That’s exactly it. Because we know that, especially in a professional setting or -- you know, you’re going to use your computer to do heavy lifting. You’re going to use your iPhone. I use all of these – all of the above, you know. I use NVDA for this and JAWS for that and – use my iPhone and use my iPad. But there are certainly times where I just want to read a book, I just want to take a quick note when somebody tells me to call them back, you know, and I’m not going to pull my iPhone out to do it, and I’m just going to take that note on my Braille display and refer to it later.
So we’re trying to – yes – to reach those folks and also the people who said, I don’t – the notetaker – I’ve moved on. I use all these other pieces of technology, but I struggle with written communication. I need to read the world around me. Auditory is just not enough. And we know that just as blind people, Braille – whether we use it or not, many of us know it and we do rely on it from time to time, and that sort of reintroducing Braille back into your work flow and seeing the power that it can bring you, whether it’s for work or just for, you know, the hobby that you’re doing or the books you want to read.
JM: Before we move on to the Victor Trek, let’s just close up some loose ends. The battery life, the weight, and the price of the –
PT: Love it. So –
JM: I was going to say the Chameleon, but the 20X. But I guess it’s all similar.
PT: The BI 20X, the battery life is that 15 hours. The price is going to be eighteen ninety-five. Again, that’s U.S., so $1895. And the weight, again, I will get this for the show notes in terms of the specs, but I’m pretty sure that is at about .8 somewhere. Point – I’m going to get it wrong. I could guess. Do you want a fruit comparison?
JM: Sure.
PT: Well, I’m going to say, just by holding this -- I just picked one up just to really think about it. And I’m saying if you’ve ever bought a nice – well, I guess it would be a 1-pound thing of strawberries. So –
JM: Yum.
PT: -- we’re looking at the 1-pound strawberries that you get in that plastic carton. You’re looking – that’s about it. Just a little more differently distributed.
JM: That’s amazing. And now, I’m hungry. But -- well, maybe I want to travel somewhere and go get some food. But thankfully, there’s been a major, major update to the Victor Trek, new maps and everything. So what’s going on there?
PT: Ladies and gentlemen, that is why J.J. has been doing this for a long time. That is called the professional segue. You, my friend, your –
JM: Joe taught me.
PT: Wow. Joe, man. You are absolutely on it, and you are correct, because if you did want to go get something to eat, not only could you use a product like the Victor Reader Trek to look up the points of interest around you, but you could virtually walk there thanks to HERE Maps, ladies and gentlemen. What we did – and it’s been a long time coming.
The Victor Reader Trek is a very popular product. I’ve said this in some places, but the Victor Reader – just a quick note that that product, worldwide, we have over 100 thousand users. And for an AT company –
JM: Wow.
PT: to – and this is not – this is Stratus, this is everything. But to have that much market in a product like that, it’s just – it’s astounding. It’s fantastic.
JM: It is.
PT: We do not do that much in many products, but to have that – it’s very neat. So the Victor Reader Trek came out in – about – going on four years now. But we listened to the feedback from our customers was that the maps and the GPS side needed to improve. And I – you know, we heard. And it takes a while, and we talked to many map providers. There’s a – I say many; there’s only about four out there today.
But we worked with a company called HERE Maps, H-e-r-e, maps, and HERE Maps are HD maps that they use, primarily in autonomous vehicle research. So if you go to their website, you’ll see – and I’ve said this. I mean, companies like Audi and Ford and whatnot are using these maps. We were able to work with them and come to an agreement that we would switch over to using HERE Maps. We were using TomTom as our map provider. Not that the maps were bad, they just did not have the right type of information for us. They were not reliable. We needed to find something that was better – going to better serve that blind traveler.
So we were able to work with HERE Maps. The maps are all available on our website. Anybody can download them. Obviously, they’re not going to do much for you if you don’t have a Victor Reader Trek, but you can certainly go download them from our website. And you can put multiple regions on. You can even put multiple countries. So the maps are broken up now by sections, so you could have the southwest or the northeast, or you could have, you know, Scandinavia or the Baltics.
And you can take those maps, put them on your device – there’s no limit in terms of how many countries or how many states. It’s more of a size issue, because you’re not going to put the whole world on your device. It’s going to take up more than the 27-ish gig allotment that you have on your internal storage on a Trek. But these maps will also allow you to virtually explore, and that is a huge step forward. We have been asked for a long time – anybody who used the old Sendero products, which I certainly did – many of us did – to learn our surroundings. We used it to walk around and hear the intersections and move all the way through our world. We can do that now on a Victor Reader Trek.
So I’m able to – and I’ve done some demonstrations over the past several months. This came out in November of 2020. But you are able to virtually walk around. So I can put myself in front of J.J.’S house, and I can walk to the train station. I can see the street grid and kind of turn left with the 4 key, right with the 6 key, use the 2 key to go straight, can turn around with the 8 key, and I can traverse – I could walk from my house in Chicago to your house in Michigan, J.J. So it’s been a huge step forward, and we’re really glad to have brought that in.
In addition to walking around, you can look at points of interest. Those have been greatly improved. They are much more modern. With that, I fully, you know, understand that this last year, we have seen a lot of change. In my neighborhood here in Chicago, we’ve lost many businesses. So I was just talking with our product manager today about what we can be looking at to update those points of interest, which we will. We certainly will be updating that as we go through the year to give everybody even – you know, another map update so that the maps are current when you’re looking for points of interest because we know so many have changed.
JM: Are the points of interest embedded in HERE Maps? Are they also coming from them, or is that coming from a different provider?
PT: Those are coming from HERE Maps. So HERE Maps – we’re getting the points of interest, we’re getting all the map data from them.
JM: I also see there’s a couple new languages that are supported with the latest update.
PT: There are, and I believe – so one of them is Spanish. We have a localization for Spanish. We also support language-switching now, so autodetect. And this would come into play if you are in a city – let’s just say you’re in somewhere like Montreal, which is -- Humanware is based in Quebec, so this is a realistic example where you’re walking around. I don’t need my directions in French, but the street names are all in French. So it’s going to pronounce those correctly. You can run it with the, you know, that multi-language pack.
And I have family in Europe. I have a lot of family who’s located in, kind of, that central and southern and Eastern Europe. And I’m able to – just depending on the languages, it just depends on what you’re looking for. But I have family in Austria, so I can put myself in and have that spoken properly in German in terms of the street names.
But the localization will continue to come. So we’ve added those, and really, it’s about having access to all of the maps now. You’re not just limited to United States or Canada or Europe or something. You can download them and move them around as you please, and you can also do that with your computer. You don’t have to do that over Wi-Fi. Previously, you had to connect to our servers and it would take you, oh, I don’t know, 12 hours to download the entire United States.
JM: Yikes.
PT: And that is just crazy. Now, you can do it in 20 minutes depending on your internet speed. So we are just – it’s been something that’s been a long time coming.
I will say, I did – and I’m not stepping out of line here by – I asked Ricky what she thought of the new maps, and she said she was very pleased. And it’s just -- everybody I’ve spoken to has really said this is what we needed on this product. These maps are great, being able to virtually explore. The reliability of the routing engine, we’ve done a lot under the hood. It’s just gotten it to the place it needed to be.
JM: I trust you’ve done a lot of side by side comparisons between the mapping engine and features of the Trek versus smart phone GPS and –
PT: Yeah.
JM: -- to be frank, it was lacking before – you know with TomTom.
PT: Right. Right.
JM: So where do you feel it’s at now, and what would you tell a smart phone user who’s trying to debate whether or not they need another piece of technology along with their smart phone?
PT: So it – you’re absolutely right. And when it comes to side by sides – and I have a slide somewhere, buried in my millions of slides that I do in various places, that talks about the comparison between HERE Maps and something like Google maps. And it really is a give-and-take, sort of ebb-and-flow comparison because you have -- where Google maps might score a point higher on something like points of interest, HERE Maps will score a point higher on the routing or what is offered in terms of directions and things and – so they are neck and neck now.
What I tell people – and again, I am an iPhone user. I use Blindsquare, I use all sorts of apps. I use Soundscape or whatever it may be. But the reality is there are a couple of pieces. It really is about assessing how comfortable you are with one-handed iPhone use, or one-handed smart phone use, or if – when you’re walking around, how are you using that phone. I live in the middle of a gigantic city. I don’t feel usually comfortable holding my phone up in the air and trying to get directions and listening to my phone while I walk. I love having it clipped on, you know, in terms of a Trek and getting turn by turn and just push-button directions.
And it’s also about battery life. If you are using Waze or you’re using Google maps or you’re using these different applications, your battery, it just suffers, and I – the fact that you can use a Trek and you’re going to get that 12 plus hours of battery life running GPS, it makes it a lot easier to get around and then – yeah, you’re going to pull it out to get your Uber or you’re going to pull out your phone to call somebody to let them know that you are where you are and not worry about draining the battery.
And the other major advantage that we don’t have on the iPhone is that push-button landmarking. Being able to drop – we can certainly drop pins, but being able to drop a voice landmark anywhere, even in open areas – because the Trek does have open-area mode. So if you’re on a college campus or you’re kind of in that – you’re camping with somebody and you want to save your camp site; right? That’s not on a street.
JM: Rite.
PT: But you can certainly drop a pin and – drop a landmark. And that’s something that is a huge advantage over using a smart phone that I’ve found personally a lot in doing lots of travel. So I do not knock the apps that are out there. If you’re comfortable using those apps, that’s great. But we have been in the GPS game for the better part of two decades. And in being in that game, you know, we’ve really continued to be here, and we believe in this. We’re not going anywhere. We will certainly still play in this space. We love and want to continue to provide GPS solutions. So if you find that it’s something that your smart phone skills are there and you don’t need it, that’s great. There’s nothing wrong with that. But there are lots of advantages to using a dedicated product.
JM: Talking about GPS technology, as it’s developed over the years, it’s gotten a lot more accurate. Where is the Trek as far as modern GPS satellites and the ability to pinpoint more exactly where you’re at?
PT: So it’s something that will have the classic Humanware, also known as, mainly Peter, possibly others, put their foot in their mouth moment; right?
So when we launched the product, we were under the impression that we would be able to utilize these – the Galileo satellites. And this was this thing that, honestly, that nobody understood. We thought we did. We certainly thought we did in saying that the Galileo satellites are going to give you this one foot or two inches of accuracy, which you can get at some points in Europe and other places where you can take advantage of this extreme pinpoint accuracy that we thought would happen. The reality is the Galileo satellites don’t do that. There is a second band that runs basically off of NFC. It’s tied into – it’s a dual band sort of receiver that can take advantage of Galileo and then position you where it can actually tell that you’re on the sidewalk and actually can give you that very specific feedback down to the foot or down to the centimeter or whatever. We were unaware of that.
So when we launched the product now, we are connecting to modern satellite systems. You can even get the Galileo satellites, but it doesn’t mean you’re getting that pinpoint accuracy that some smart phones – and I still haven’t used one. I’ve seen some feedback – I think there were a couple out of china. There might be a couple newer ones now with the new Samsung phone, I think, can do it, where it can access this dual band sort of GPS and –
JM: No iPhones.
PT: No iPhones. No. No. But it is this new piece, and we were unaware. So we certainly – and I say we. I mean, I did it. I certainly have put my foot in my mouth on that one in terms of saying that you would get this magical, wonderful pinpoint accuracy on a product like the Trek, and it’s just not true. And the same is – I mean the same is not, you know – you can’t do that on your iPhone or anything. We still have this – it’s better. It’s certainly better than it was. I wouldn’t say that you’re at this 50-foot stuff like you were years ago, but you’re certainly – you need to use your orientation and mobility skills combined – when you’re using a GPS product, it’s an aid. You know, we’re using it to supplement or to, kind of augment our travel. We’re not using it as our our cane or as our guide dog. And I think that’s something that we want to, as we go forward, if we look at where we are, I certainly would not say we’re going to have this pinpoint accuracy until I use the product myself.
So definitely was a learning experience. And I saw – we were not the only ones. I did see other players talk about the possibilities of Galileo out there in cars and autonomous vehicles and various places, and it just never came to fruition because it was not understood that you needed this sort of second-level receiver type of chip to get the second band.
JM: Sure. We’ll get there, I guess, eventually.
PT: Dude, I hope. I could use it.
JM: Let’s talk about the cost of the update and of the Trek. The cost did go up a little bit for the full unit.
PT: Yeah. So the – anybody who has an existing Trek, if you are – anybody who had the Trek got the map update for free. There was – I fought very hard – as did others with me here -- to keep that free for existing users. Because of the feedback we received, this is something that had to happen. We needed to improve the product. So it was free to anybody who had the product.
But, after November of 2020, a Trek device is seven ninety-five U.S. So it was six ninety-five. It is seven ninety-five. And again, when we do these map updates, when we do these pieces, there is a lot of licensure involved in licensing maps at a global level and also being able to replicate those licenses. So you say, how many are you going to sell or how many people are using this or how many people might use this, and that’s how you would come to an agreement with a company on using their maps locally on a device. So we did raise the cost of the product. But it would be completely ridiculous to me if we would have charged existing users for that update, so we did not. And I’m really – I’m really glad for that because there was a lot of talk that we would. And I think, even last summer, I was mentioning at conventions that we weren’t too sure. But we were working hard behind the scenes to not have that be a thing.
So map updates are free. You want to be on version 2.1 of your Victor Reader Trek software. Then you can install the HERE Maps. And again, that’s able on our website. So if you go to www.humanware.com, you can download the maps, you can download the new software. If you click on support and then click on Victor Reader Trek -- so you can find those in your links list -- you can certainly come and download the new maps. I did walk through this on some webinars too. So if you go to the Humanware Technologies YouTube channel, you will find me all over the place on that stuff. But certainly our instruction’s there.
JM: Sounds great. I need to go do that myself.
PT: Do it, man. You’re going to love it. I’m telling you.
JM: I will. One more quick question on the Trek. Is that where the development is? We get some people that ask us sometimes if Humanware is still updating, I guess what’s officially called the all new Victor Stream, the second generation one. Because some people say, I don’t want any of this GPS stuff, and it is about twice the cost of a new Victor Stream.
PT: Yes.
JM: Where is the development at these days?
PT: So it’s a good question. And for many of you out there who are listening, probably received or may have heard about a survey that we launched at the middle of February. It’s closed now. It came out, was open for a couple of weeks, and we got hundreds, actually, thousands of responses. The survey was sent out as a means of gathering feedback from our users. We need to hear – and wanted to hear from our users – about what was needed and what they like about the current Stream and what they think or want to see or don’t want to see in the future.
So as of right now, we are absolutely 100 percent supporting and still selling and working with the current second-generation Stream. The development has definitely been very stagnant over the last couple of years. There’s no doubt about it. There’s no sugar-coating that. It has certainly remained very stagnant. What we’re doing is we’re assessing what we need to be thinking about with the product. So nothing is imminent, there’s nothing in development that’s going to drop on you, you know, in a month or two. But I certainly am – you know, we’re all aware of that. The product is eight years old, and it’s reaching a point in time that we need to make some serious decisions, and we want to bring it forward. We are not going to abandon that product. So it’s not just – the Victor Reader brand is going to remain a thing. But I would foresee that we look at and assess what needs to be done. What do, or what is needed in an updated product at some point in the future?
And we gathered and got a ton of feedback. Actually, it was – I was telling our product manager, Rolande, I said, you know, we’re going to get – when we send this out, you’re going to get hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands of responses in a very short period of time. And she said, really, that’d be awesome. I would be happy with one or two hundred. And, you know, it was like, after we – day four, it was like, oh. We have 720 responses or whatever it is. So people were ready, man. They were ready. But it also did fuel this whole, there’s a new stream, and it’s coming. And it’s obvious that we were looking for feedback to create a product.
But nothing is – nothing’s happening. We need to do that so that when we do create that product, when we do bring something forward, it’s going to be current and it’s going to be what our users want. And some users want everything, and some users don’t want anything to change. When we create a product, we – we – it’s a major struggle because we do create products for six-year-olds, and we’ve created products for 106-year-olds. And a product like the Victor Reader is used by every age group. You know, it really has to be versatile. So we’re not going to make everyone happy. Certainly saw some wild suggestions with what the product should do, but we’re going to take that all into account and see where we go.
JM: Great. One more question before we let you go. I do want to address what happened recently with the Humanware website. Of course, the timing – I’m sure you loved it. It was down during CSUN, and – yeah.
PT: We had – yeah.
JM: Yeah.
PT: We had our biggest show. You know, CSUN is like the, sort of, grand meeting of everybody, and then Humanware unfortunately was the victim of a cyberattack. So we -- and this happened in early-ish March, so somewhere around March 5th, 6th. I’m trying – I honestly don’t know what day it is. I’ve been so busy. I think it was March 6th. Whatever that kind of precursor to CSUN.
But we were -- somebody did hack us, got into, and we were under a cyberattack, as you know. So anybody who tried to visit the website certainly got an error, which became just a basic landing page. Our phone systems were down, as you know. We did not have access to lots of things. We are fully back up and running. We can say with absolute confidence that in the U.S. here, there was no credit card, no customer data – we don’t store that information, so none of that was compromised.
We certainly had a lot – and have a lot – when that happens, it’s not just a website that goes down. We have servers that need to update products. We have lots of things that need to be maintained, so we did have an outage, but I can say that as of this week – so it was two weeks that we were kind of scrambling, certainly took a lot of effort to get things back up and running. We’re very diligent, we got our phone lines back up first. I was in the tech support queue, so I may have talked to a few of you. And I haven’t done that in many years, so – Peter was back to his call center days. I was in the queue, we were all hands on deck helping to get it all back in order, and everything is back in order.
So the website is fully functional, all of our services are functional, all of our shipping, all of our orders, all of our support, myself, the team that I run which is a team of product specialists, we’re all here to help. We are back, totally back. So unfortunately, in 2021, and even years past and in years – you know, future years, we’re going to see this being a reality of, not just Humanware or other companies, but we saw – I don’t know if you saw, J.J., I mean, I think it was Acer or one of them was hit this week. Somebody wanted 150 million dollars to open up some website or – you know, it’s just the reality of what happens in organized crime and -- there are people out there who look for vulnerabilities regardless of – it’s not about us being who we are or somebody being a local library or local government or local entity or charity. There are people out there who will try to take advantage of a company and vulnerabilities out there and do some bad things. But we are very lucky to have a great team and people worked really hard to get everything back up and going, and we are totally back on point.
JM: You mentioned credit cards, which is of course, good to hear. Other user account information, passwords, things like that, were they compromised, or should people be changing their passwords?
PT: No. So there’s no risk of that to my knowledge. And I think what we’re doing, honestly, when something like this happens, is we are in the process of assessing. There are lots of – we need to run and look and see where or what happened. How far or where did these folks get to? We know with certainty that, like I said, I mean, I know – I’m just – I know the U.S. side, and there were no credit cards. We do all that through a third party. There was no – none of that information was taken.
As for the other pieces, I mean, we don’t have accounts necessarily. I will say we do have the HW Buddy app which is – does require a username and password, but that is not hosted by us, so that was not affected at all. So that certainly wasn’t compromised. When we know what was affected, if we need to communicate to individuals or to whomever, we will absolutely do that because we legally have to, firstly. There’s no way around that. We can’t – we would never want to get around that. But I believe that there is no need for us to do that at this point in time because nothing was compromised that we know of. But that doesn’t mean that in the next week, two, three, that somebody might say, gosh, you know, there were names that were in some data base somewhere. But I – to my knowledge, none of that is. But if we do uncover that that needs to be done, we will be very pro-active in making sure that everybody is aware if something needs to be changed or if we know some data was compromised.
JM: Fair enough. Before we go, if you could let people know how to get in contact with you to send feedback or however you want to do that.
PT: Absolutely. So if – and there are a lot of ways, and I am happy to – I certainly am happy to give my Email address. So it’s Peter, dot, Tucic – that’s P-e-t-e-r, common spelling, dot Tucic. And Tucic is T as in Tom, U, C as in Charlie, I, C as in Charlie at humanware.com.
You can always go to our website, www.humanware.com. We do have the HW Buddy application on iOS and Android, which is really a resource hub for all things Humanware. We’ve really loved having that product out. And you can always send product suggestions -- because you can certainly send them to me, but I can’t do anything with them. But if you have, and you want, them to really get to product management, you want to send that to info@humanware.com because that will go to customer service and will be passed to the appropriate product manager.
But I’m certainly happy to answer product questions to the best of my abilities. Or I may say, hey, this is something you really want to get involved with tech support or might be somebody on my team can address specific pieces. But really happy to help where I can.
And so reach out and come visit us. We certainly want to be in person. I know I’ve met many of you out there, and I would – cannot wait to meet you again. And that same goes for you, J. I mean, we got to – you got to come over, man. We’re going to have something going on this summer. So –
JM: Awesome.
PT: -- make your way down. You know how we throw down here in Chicago, so –
JM: I’ll get on that train.
PT: Love it.
JM: Thank you so much for spending quite a bit of time with us this afternoon. We’ll try to get you on a little more than every five years.
PT: Hey, you know, I will come back any time. It’s a matter of – and I mean, Patrick’s going to have to make me sound good. So it’s whether or not he wants to do that. I mean, that’s up to him.
JM: Thank you so much.
PT: Rock and roll. Thanks, J.J.
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Joe Steinkamp is no stranger to the world of technology, having been a user of video magnification and blindness related electronic devices since 1979. Joe has worked in radio, retail management and Vocational Rehabilitation for blind and low vision individuals in Texas. He has been writing about the A.T. Industry for 15 years and podcasting about it for almost a decade.
